Posts by Cold Steel

6

Slavery!

by smmcroberts in

i've always questioned the appropriateness of the title "faithful and discreet slave" that the governing body so proudly assigns itself.

but i've spent most of my time demonstrating how they've been neither faithful nor discreet.

recently it dawned on my that i'm even more angry at the fact that they call themselves a "slave"!

Cold Steel

...until there was a falling out over Moyle's indiscreet whistle-blowing.

Fascinating how Rutherford twists the scripture to fit his own defense of the seemingly indefensible treatment he meted out to Bethel staff. The board should have suspended Rutherford and appointed an investigative committee to look into the charges. Instead, as they do today in too many work situations, the complaining staff members are either transferred or fired. Especially in government, where I worked my entire career. I majored in Journalism/Communications, yet I found myself working once for a woman who was a secretary who attended a training course in management. She was an idiot, but she shot to the top of our office and given lavish promotions. She was always getting in trouble for making indiscreet decisions, but top management always backed her in the inevitable head butting that resulted, and her ill treatment of staff. Sounds like "God's Organization" suffers from the same maladies!

I reckon Moyle was the faithless and indiscreet slave Jesus spoke about. It's amazing how close the thinking was (where members refused to read Moyle's side) to other cult members led by one person. The one led by Warren Jeffs in Utah and Colorado acts similarly. When members are excommunicated by Jeffs, they are immediately abandoned by their families and reassigned to others. Many ex-members complain that their families aren't even interested in hearing their sides of the stories; they just do what they're told, fearing to do otherwise would mean they would be next! Incredible how human minds work. It's like the Germans in World War II. They turned to one-man rule, abandoning a constitutional government. Then they followed Hitler without thinking, oftentimes turning in their own family members.

Of course, I know no one turns in their own families in the JW community, right? There's no fear of those in charge, right?

78

HOW TO IDENTIFY THE TRUE RELIGION

by Fifth Column in

jesus said that the true religion would be evident in the lives of the people who practice it.

by their fruits you will recognize them, he said.

every good tree produces fine fruit.

Cold Steel

Elder FifthColumn's problem is that he can write thread posts, but he can't read replies (apparently against the rules), though he might sneak a peek when no one's looking.

I've been thinking of ways to improve the JW's administration at the KH level. It involves voice stress tests and polygraphs. What do you think??

17

JW's , Star Trek V and pain.

by DATA-DOG in

since everyone is thinking of star trek this week, i have a question.

in star trek v, kirk has a chance to have his secret pain removed by spock's half-brother.

kirk refuses, and says that he needs his pain because it makes us who we are.

Cold Steel

Nope. There are things I'd love to have excised from my memory. I had to kill a cat once and I love cats. There are other things I hope I can get excised in the resurrection.

6

Slavery!

by smmcroberts in

i've always questioned the appropriateness of the title "faithful and discreet slave" that the governing body so proudly assigns itself.

but i've spent most of my time demonstrating how they've been neither faithful nor discreet.

recently it dawned on my that i'm even more angry at the fact that they call themselves a "slave"!

Cold Steel

I don't know why more JWs haven't made an issue out of this. The actual word used should be translated “servant” and not “slave.”

The servants of God are not slaves. A servant is “One who is privately employed to perform domestic services.” A slave is “One bound in servitude.” What’s the difference? A servant is a free agent, whilst a slave is not. And God is not about taking free agency from man. He will not do it nor can He do it. Those who serve God do so voluntarily, and the translators of the JW Bible have made a grave error in not realizing it.

I don’t believe Jesus is speaking about a group or body of men when He talks about the faithful and wise servant. He is speaking of individuals. The scripture states: “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?” Meat is sustenance, and the servants of the Lord are expected to be ready to sustain their families and the church.

“Blessed is that servant, whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.” In other words, those servants who prepare for the Lord’s coming will be rewarded with crowns. The next verses speak of an “evil servant” who is not ready for His coming. That, too, is not a body of people, but are individuals.

The JW Bible translators use the term “faithful and discreet” slave. I have no issue with “faithful,” but what about “discreet,” the word the JW translators use instead of “wise,” which is the correct translation? What’s the difference here? “Wise” is defined as “Having wisdom or discernment for what is true, right, or lasting.” But “discreet” is “wise self-restraint in speech and behavior.” In short, even an idiot can exercise wise self-restraint, such restraint that can keep him from being killed; however, the idiot cannot be wise, for it's not in his nature.

The apostle Paul warned that those who serve God in a priestly office cannot take the honor unto themselves, but must be called “as was Aaron.” (See Hebrews 5:4) The JWs put their faith in a body of men who have been neither called nor ordained. And if not, who ordained them, and whence did they receive their callings? The General Body is a manmade group who has taken “this honor” unto themselves. So how was Aaron called? Through direct revelation from God, to Moses. How was the General Body chosen? It was chosen by men and not God.

It's another example of poor translation combined with faulty exegesis.

39

Restrictions On JW Members: What Are They??

by Cold Steel in

can someone please explain the rules and regulations jws are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world?

for example, if a jw wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?.

and for those who have cable or satellite television, what are their restrictions?

Cold Steel

Thanks, Tornapart. If you've been struggling with the organization for more than 50 years, what is it that is tearing you apart about it? Making a major change in one's theological outlook after so many years must be difficult. If you do decide to drift apart, will you remain a Christian or will you become an atheist?

The rules to me, an outsider, sound beyond belief. I read about the absolute dedication that members of the FLDS community feel about that monster, Warren Jeffs, and that, too, makes me wonder how people and organizations control people. When part of my family became JWs back in the 70s, they cut off all ties with the family and refuse to this day to return phone calls. My sister called one of our cousins and said he treated her like dirt. "He sounded like he couldn't wait to get off the phone with me," she said.

One of the things many people who experience Near Death Experiences (NDEs) talk about is the deep feeling of peace that envelopes them. They say their experiences are very real, not ethereal or indistinct like dreams. Everything they see is in color and three diminsions. The reason I mention them is that people of virtually all religions have similar experiences. It's not that Catholics experience them, and everyone else has hellish experiences. The notion that one church receives salvation and members of other faiths are damned is something that's missing from the NDEs. Some do have negative experiences, but these are people who have lived less than desirable lives. And even these are often treated with compassion when they beseech God for salvation. The people in the FLDS compound in Utah, Colorodo and Texas all believe that everyone other than themselves will be damned, and they, too, are preoccupied with Armageddon. They're taught that eventually all the people of the Earth will attack them, and only the power of God will prevail in their favor.

The success of many of these groups relies on them isolating their members from the rest of the world. They, too, believe that the worst sin someone else can commit is apostasy. And the rules they're expected to follow are incredible. To people on the outside, these rules sound like pure fiction. If my church tried to control me like that, there would be an instant parting of the ways.

When the JWs first offered me Bible courses, I figured it would be a good way to learn about them and how they viewed the Bible. There were no rules by my own church against my taking these courses or reading their material. But Holy Toledo! It only works one way. They would read a page or so and then ask me solicitous questions designed to elicit specific answers. If I replied in any other way they would re-ask the questions in other ways. But they weren't interested in my views, only in how I answered the questions in the book.

So good luck in your decision, whatever it may be. Sometimes it's better just to stick with it if doing otherwise would disrupt your family or end in divorce. You can always ignore the rules and do what YOU think is best for YOU. I don't see anything in the scriptures, though, that would authorize a religion to make so many rules ostracizing you from the rest of the world. Especially a religion that admits it receives no revelation from God.

Anyway, good luck. And thank you for your feedback and the answer regarding elders. It makes me wonder if anyone in the church is ordained in the religious sense. You know, by the laying on of hands? The problem about ordination is that you always have to have someone who ordained you to have someone who ordained them. But that's another topic.

39

Restrictions On JW Members: What Are They??

by Cold Steel in

can someone please explain the rules and regulations jws are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world?

for example, if a jw wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?.

and for those who have cable or satellite television, what are their restrictions?

Cold Steel

This has been interesting. It makes me wonder whether the church leaders believe all this mess or not. To me, JW eschatology stands out from that of other Christians as being absurd. Their literature talks about being restored to the blissful conditions Adam and Eve enjoyed (though I take it that everyone will be dressed!) But the terrestrial nature of inheriting the Earth, as I said, seems not to make much sense. I ask many Christians what their take on eternity is, and what it entails, and I get all sorts of responses. But the JWs seem to be happy with living for eternity in a garden.

From what you've said about apostasy, it almost makes me want to attend a Kingdom Hall meeting. Tell me, if I just walked in off the street, what sort of reception would I receive? I've seen some of the KHs, but they look small and uninviting. Mostly they're brick buildings with no windows. Spooky!

Also, what about elders? How many are there per KH, and does an elder outrank an overseer, or vice versa? I asked about whether elders are ordained by the laying on of hands, but no one replied. Aren't there any former elders online here?

Thanks again. Love the rants.

39

Restrictions On JW Members: What Are They??

by Cold Steel in

can someone please explain the rules and regulations jws are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world?

for example, if a jw wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?.

and for those who have cable or satellite television, what are their restrictions?

Cold Steel

Oh, I get it. The JWs who died in their rooms that day of the tsunami would have been spared had they been on the ball and doing field service. It would be interesting to see how this information was substantiated. It means that the church administration would have had to tabulate all the membership deaths caused by the tsunami and had that data at hand. They also would have had to have the data regarding local membership throughout the region and the deaths, if any, there. Frankly, members on vacation who survived would be, to me, a question mark. How would the church admin people know how many people were on vacation in the area if they weren't killed (and even if they were)? How would they get the information? They probably could tabulate all the Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the entire region who were killed, and it's not likely that all of them were witnessing, nor is it likely they all escaped death. It sounds like a good JW Urban Legend, but that's still not the point, is it? At best he heard it from somewhere else. At worst, he made it up and used it as a shock effect.

An apostate is someone that was baptized as a JW, but then decided they no longer believed it. They are worse than serial killers, because unlike serial killers, they cannot be forgiven.

Really? The only unforgivable sin I know of is the sin against the Holy Spirit. You mean that if I was a baptized member, and that I became an apostate, that I would be sinning against the Holy Spirit? Hmmm. I wonder how someone could sin against the active force of God? Anyway, once I left, no matter how much I repented, I could NEVER be forgiven and return to the fold? Or does it mean that if I die as an apostate, that then it would be unforgivable?

Several of you used the term "approved." Is this an esoteric term for being approved for resurrection or simply approved by the folks at Bethel? Do the folks at Bethel say you can be unapproved for resurrection for failure to live the rules? If I were a JW, I would go to the church I wanted to go to, read and watch what I wanted to, take comparitive religion courses at my local college (or as part of my college curriculum, which might just be in Theology). Wonder what they would do if you took such a course and they found out about it? But if I were a baptized member and believed all that...crap...I can't imagine Jehovah canceling my resurrection.

And if he did, so what? Beats living in a crummy garden for the rest of eternity. I mean, think about it. Do those guys at Bethel have any concept of eternity? How would they feel living in a garden where 500 trillion years is a drop in the proverbial barrel! After 950 trillion years, will they still be digging those family reunions, looking for new musical instruments to play and hiking in the hills and mountains? Look at the pictures in the Watchtower, my friends. How does 975 trillion years of that grab you? You get up one fine, wonderful morning, just like the fine, wonderful morning the day before and the fine, wonderful day after and you what? Just what do you do in a bloody garden after, oh, the first decade? Do you think those nice drawings in the Watchtowers will have the same excitement they did when you first saw them? And, since there's no meat, those fried apricots and mushrooms have really started to grate on you! After a decade, you're willing to murder to be someplace else, and what about 500 years after that? And five hundred years after that? What about a billion years...a trillion years? When will the garden paradise get old? And 975 trillion years, as I said, is the tiniest fraction of eternity. You're not even getting started!

So you can see why being resurrected and put in a garden is more of a torture than a reward.

39

Restrictions On JW Members: What Are They??

by Cold Steel in

can someone please explain the rules and regulations jws are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world?

for example, if a jw wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?.

and for those who have cable or satellite television, what are their restrictions?

Cold Steel

Thanks, all. The replies have been most illuminating. If a person truly believes in the religion, they would most likely live by the rules without having them enforced. Another question I have is: I've been told that JWs are discouraged from taking vacations and expected to turn them into service for the church. I've always considered that extreme -- too extreme to give it any credance -- but now I'm not too sure. Is this true?

A separate consideration is the question of being resurrected. A member who throws all these rules into the trash can and does as he wishes, reads and watches what he wishes, associates with those whom he wishes and attends meetings as he sees fit -- a member who does all these things will still be resurrected if he buys into the JW theology, correct? Since all people, male and female, will be resurrected eventually, won't their loyalty and convictions will be judged in that day? Even non-members can make good in that day, too, if they choose, and choose to support Jehovah. In other words, if I'm a member (and I'm not), and I live a decent, moral, truthful life, buy in to all of the doctrines, give my allegiance to Jehovah -- won't my resurrection be permanent? I mean, Jehovah isn't going to nail someone just for not obeying the rules is he?

It's not like someone's going to say, "Did you hear about Brother Jones? He got his resurrection rescended because he read some literature some Mormons gave him back in 1972. Yep, he was there one minute and *poof* -- he was gone the next! I also understand he visited a Seventh Day Adventist church a friend invited him to attend in 1978." Right?

Anyway, I understand there's some loopholes for non-believers in the day of resurrection. When I asked some JWs about what happened to those who had never heard of Christ -- never had an opportunity to accept the Gospel -- they said it depends on what they do when they're resurrected. In other words, which side they choose when Armegeddon comes. If that's true, then the rules won't have any lasting relevance.

And last question: when an elder is selected, if he ordained to that office. And by ordained I mean, do they put hands on his head and ordain him an elder in the name of Jesus Christ? Or does he just get a certificate and letter in the mail?

13

The "new" scrolls are abandoned - No explanation given!

by The Searcher in

the september 1st watchtower 2012, page 16, discards very quietly a false teaching first invented in 1985, and repeated 4 times since - "new scrolls" - interpolating revelation 20:12. here is what it says;.

"the resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in revelation chapter 20 are revealed.

(romans 6:7) among those who will come back to life and have the opportunity to learn about god are "both the righteous and the unrighteous," said the apostle paul.

Cold Steel

People are judged based on the lives they lead on Earth. As the scriptures state, all will be judged by Jehovah (Jesus). For "the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (see John 5:22).

39

Restrictions On JW Members: What Are They??

by Cold Steel in

can someone please explain the rules and regulations jws are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world?

for example, if a jw wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?.

and for those who have cable or satellite television, what are their restrictions?

Cold Steel

Can someone please explain the rules and regulations JWs are expected to abide by as it pertains to the outside world? For example, if a JW wanted to debate his religion on a site like this, can he/she do so without fear of reprisal from the church?

And for those who have Cable or Satellite television, what are their restrictions? Can they watch Fox News or CNN? What movies are acceptable? Can JWs visit other churches or read publications that aren’t published by the WBTS? And can they have friends outside of the church?

When I took their Bible study, they gave me a small book and we would read a chapter that pushed a certain doctrine; then they would ask baited questions to ensure one’s agreement. One of these doctrines was the state of the dead. Not only did I not agree with it, I had written an article about it several years ago. I was surprised to discover not only that they couldn’t answer some of my objections, each JW refused to take or read my article. Instead, they brought an “elder” to our next meeting and he was arrogant and combative. When I asked if we could just move on, he reluctantly agreed and I just started answering the questions the way the book wanted me to answer them. I figured I could talk to the other two fellows on the following week without it turning into a chest poking situation. Despite the fact that I answered the questions correctly, the two JWs shook hands with me at the end of our meeting and then never came back and never called!

I know that one of the negative aspects of modern “cults” is to cut members off from the outside world. If they’re not permitted to visit other churches, they won’t be able to see many of their doctrines from another viewpoint. And if they are forced to use their own Bible translations, they won’t see that their own translation is not up to par. And finally, if they can’t socialize with anyone outside of their faith, they won’t be able to be tempted to visit their churches or places of learning. Someone told me that the JWs discourage higher education. Is this true? And how can the leadership prohibit someone from having a beard? Aren't they supposed to just interpret the scriptures and not write new ones?

I’ve learned a lot about cults by researching the FLDS church in southern Utah. The members are physically cut off from the outside world by gates and walls, and members are forbidden to read any religious publications not published by them. They are forbidden to listen to outside news sources or peruse the news and other magazines when they go into town to shop. And their “prophet” Warren Jeffs is the last word on everything. He can assign wives to other men or banish a man and give all of his wives and children to other men in the community, and the wives and children sustain Jeffs and refuse to speak to their own husbands or children. If you give any of the members a religious tract or article from a national news publication, it goes right in the trash.

Not everyone can force their members into such communities, but I’m troubled by the similarities I’m seeing between the JWs and some of these outside cults.

So how far do these restrictions go?

Thanks for any feedback!